Belle speaks with Sexologist & Relationship Expert, Dr Gabrielle Morrissey about divorce and break ups. How do you know when it’s time to call it a day? Is there a good way to break up? And, what are the benefits?
Dr Gabrielle Morrissey is a global expert on sex and relationships and the CEO of Australia’s Women’s Resilience Centre. She has trained relationship counsellors across the world, written three books, and pens The Divorce Diaries for Mamamia. But, beyond her impressive credentials, Dr Morrissey has also walked the path of divorce. She recently spoke to Belle on the Step Into Me podcast about break ups.
Belle: Dr Morrissey, as a leading voice in relationships, it must have been difficult for you to realise that your relationship was over. It just goes to show that it can happen to anyone and that there are no guarantees when it comes to marriage.
Dr Morrissey: I got married before this term love bombing was widely understood. And so I fell prey to being love bombed. But I also say there is no person that has any guarantee that their relationship will work out because life is constantly throwing curveballs at us.
We just never know what’s coming. We can be in deep, authentic, genuine, passionate love at one stage in the relationship. And that still doesn’t mean that a long-term monogamous, decades spanning marriage is going to work.
Many would say it’s not actually a natural human condition to be monogamous with one partner for their whole life. It’s a cultural construct. And so we fight a lot of different circumstances in our lives to stay in a relationship with one person across our entire lifespan. It’s a huge challenge to us as humans to do that.
Belle: I’ve often said it should be a five-year contract.
Dr Morrissey: Yes, and then you can choose to renew. It’s funny, but there’s a serious element to that idea, which is that that’s really what counselling couples is all about. It’s checking into where you are. I mean, you should do it more often than five years and stop the tendency to grow apart and really keep checking in that you’re tracking together on the same page, heading in the same direction with the same goals and dreams.
When you get married, you don’t turn into one person. A healthy relationship has two distinct individuals in it. As Khalil Gibran says, you’re still two separate pillars to build a solid foundation. If you became one, the whole thing wobbles and falls over.
So you really need your individuality, but that means constantly checking in with one another to make sure that you’re going in the same direction at the same time with the same aims and experiences and wishes and goals, and that’s where the challenge lies.
Warning Signs Before You Commit
Belle: So in hindsight, is there anything that you would have done differently? Do you think that we should be more aware of things like love bombing?
Dr Morrissey: Definitely. People should be looking for love bombing because it’s a sign of an unhealthy relationship to come. It’s sort of like that adage if it’s too good to be true, it probably is.
So if someone is purporting to meet your every single need and it’s every dream come true and you never argue and everything you ever wanted is wrapped into one person who is just your prince charming, everything in the fairytale; that’s just not real life.
You need to sort of pop that bubble and look more critically at that person and how well you actually know them beyond the facade. When you’re dating, everybody puts on their mask and their best foot forward. Love bombing is usually short-term, so those are often whirlwind romances.
I eloped. That was about red flag number 10! And I’d ignored several. You really need to look at getting to know your partner before you get into legal contracts and involve buying property and things like having babies and permanent things that are more difficult to undo because through time that the mask comes down.
So you know, if you take a trip together, if you meet each other’s families; these are all “traditions”, but they have good, solid science underneath them to test through that biochemical and sociological mask that we put on when we’re in limerence or that lust mode.
You really do want to challenge one another before you make a major commitment, so you know what you’re getting into in terms of the downs as well as the ups. That’s something I would have changed – the rushing into marriage.
And I think take a good look at what’s motivating you to get married too. A lot of times you hear about people who want the wedding but not the marriage, or they fall in love with the fairytale, or they’ve left it too late in their own mind. They think, ‘It’s now or never. This is my chance to have kids. I better just do it’. And so they rush into something. Kids are the worst motivator because things only get harder and more complicated with kids.
But there are definitely things that we need to look at in terms of green flags, red flags,
and beige flags and what is motivating you to make that commitment and how much have you
thought it through. And how much of your own network have you brought in and what do they
think? You know, they’re warning signs if none of your friends like him or your family doesn’t
even know him. Take a look at what those signs are telling you.
Red Flags
Belle: When we think separation or divorce, we might assume that things have turned nasty, but sometimes it’s just a feeling inside or an emptiness in the relationship. Or, people as we know just sometimes drift apart. But what are some of those flags that we should be looking out for?
Dr Morrissey: Well, the red flags that are there at the outset won’t disappear. People don’t change very easily. So when you’re dating somebody, when you see their behaviours, you should take them for what they are. That’s who they are and they’re showing you. So you can’t think, oh, it was just something he did because he was extraordinarily stressed. Well, that’s how he’s going to be when he’s extraordinarily stressed. That’s not a one-off thing.
So your red flags; there’s several different kinds. There are the smaller ones in that these are things that could create conflict, and then there are really big ones that have to do with character and respect and communication. So if you have communication difficulties at the start, you’re going to have them a year in and five years in.
Any kind of disrespect or disregard or controlling possessiveness in today’s world with technology tracking, that’s a big red flag, because you need to have some autonomy and individuality in your relationship. That’s freedom.
And so if you’re giving that up or being threatened or teased or anything that makes you feel like you don’t have your own free mind and free will, that’s a huge red flag. You need to be able to have your freedom of choice.
There are studies that show, still today in 2025, that a third of men in Australia–and global studies are around the same figure–believe that they have the veto power in a relationship for decisions. They believe they have the bottom line say and the right, not the choice, but the right to know where their partner is. So these are slippery slopes to go down in a relationship.
You need to build trust, have good communication, and know that you are free in your relationship. Even if it’s legally binding, you still make that choice to be in that relationship. And this is what we’re seeing less and less of as more women start to report that they feel controlled. So that’s a huge red flag.
Belle: I think it was Maya Angelou who said when people show you who they are, believe them.
Dr Morrissey: Exactly.
Is It Time to Move On?
Belle: So how do we distinguish between normal relationship challenges and those deeper problems, that maybe we should start thinking about moving on?
Dr Morrissey: There’s some really interesting research around this and the first thing I’m going to say, at the risk of sounding non-scientific, non-academic and a little woo woo, is that there is science around female intuition. So if something in your female intuition, that gut feeling, is not aligned with your value set or what you know to be right, that is a very powerful force. We tend to silence it because we have all kinds of other conditioning and people pleasing and gender
norms that silence that female intuition.
So an unhealthy relationship, first of all, has that little voice where it’s telling you something is not right. And when women tell you that they’ve left after the final straw, when he called me names in front of the kids or when the kids finally got involved; you know that there have been months, if not years, of that kind of behaviour affecting just them, where their voice has been quashed down.
We need to learn to listen to our voices earlier. It doesn’t mean we have to just rush out and leave. But we have to address what is it saying that isn’t right, and who can I talk to about that?
Is this a relationship that is going through conflict? Can we find our way back in healthy
communication and re-bond? Or is it a relationship that has been going down this road for far too long? Is it time to actually be free of it because it’s never going to change? What are you telling yourself?
What is it like if he goes away and then he comes back? As soon as he returns from a work trip there’s a bad vibe that hits the house. He comes home from work and it’s back to eggshells. Or I brace myself because he opens a bottle of drink and I know a fight is going to come.
Can you see what the patterns are? You need to look at how bad they are in order to determine is this salvageable? Or is it abuse and control and you’re actually better off being out of it? I can’t stress counselling enough because that’s really hard to see by yourself when you’re in it.
Who to Ask for Help?
You have to articulate your situation to a counsellor rather than a girlfriend. We can do it with friends and family, but usually they have their own agenda. They’re not trained to kind of bracket that to the side. They’ll bring their own thoughts and perceptions and feelings and cloud it even more.
The good thing about counselling is it’s neutral. The counsellor wants what’s best for you or to hold up a mirror so you can figure it out for yourself.
Belle: Do you think it’s harder to leave when you’re in a relationship with a narcissist? I spent the best part of a decade in a relationship which should have ended years beforehand. It would start with criticisms and my reality being twisted. But if I talked about leaving, he’d come good and give me hope that it could be fantastic. I’d feel guilty for ever having thought ill of him. But soon, the criticisms and gaslighting would start again. I thought I was going crazy and didn’t know which way was up for a while.
Dr Morrissey: Well there’s really two versions of that. There’s the person that somewhere either deep down or not so deep down knows they’re with a narcissist. They know that they’re
in the cycle. There are powerful motivators keeping them there that are very valid. It might be children, finances, low self esteem. It might be just comfort and familiarity and not wanting to live life alone. There’s fear. There are all kinds of reasons why people choose a bad relationship over no relationship. So these are people who know what they’re in and they’re struggling with how to cope with it.
Then there are people who either don’t know what a narcissist is or don’t believe that their partner is a narcissist. And so they don’t know the cycle that they’re in and can’t recognise the signs. They see the pattern, but they don’t see how manipulated they’re being with tactics like breadcrumbing and gaslighting.
Gaslighting is altering your reality to make you think not just that you’re crazy, but that you’re remembering everything wrong. You can never win an argument because they’re constantly changing reality on you and memories on you.
And breadcrumbing is when people will say when it’s good it’s amazing. You’re getting just enough good to keep you down the trail of the relationship. There’s just tiny bits of treats along the way. Whereas the rest of the time, when it’s bad, it’s really bad.
So it’s particularly complicated when somebody’s in a relationship with a narcissist and they don’t see the patterns. They don’t know quite what they’re dealing with, and they recognise it after they’ve left.
Again, it comes down to how do you feel in your relationship? When you wake up are you looking forward to the day? Do they make you feel like you’re added value to the relationship and your shared life together? Is there more good than bad? Do you enjoy doing things together or are there lots of put downs and critiques? Are they mocking you with mean humour? Have things become where there’s more negative than positive? In a relationship in this day and age we expect some form of equality.
Healthy Vs Unhealthy Relationship
A healthy relationship may not always look exactly equal. If you listen to Brene Brown she goes through this. The two of you make up 100. So you may not always be 50/50 in terms of contribution and energy, domestic labour, and emotional connection. When you say, ‘I’ve got so many things going on with work and I’ve only got 30’. Then your partner very lovingly will say, ‘I’ve got 70 to give to the relationship. I’ll give a little more while you’ve got less’ and vice versa. When you have that kind of mutual respect and open communication, you can say that without feeling worry, anxiety, guilt, or shame. That’s a healthy relationship.
If you feel you’re in an unhealthy relationship, that’s when it really takes counselling. If you go into a counselling session and you start to see elements of gaslighting or they’re shifting the story, or love bombing the therapist, as in trying to be super charming and shifting the dynamic…and you’re like, who is this person in this counselling session… then you know you’re dealing with a narcissist.
This is someone who’s not bringing their authentic self into the room. It’s going to be very difficult to create something healthy with someone who’s not being authentic with you. If you don’t recognise them, run! It’s time to call it. Call it for what it is. And that’s very difficult for many women to do. Many women who’ve left a narcissist will say they waited way, way, way too long because the tactics are very compelling. Their whole design is to keep you with them, so it’s very difficult to leave.
Preparing to Break Up
Belle: I loved your response in “The Divorce Diaries” to a woman who loved her husband but felt they were no longer in love with each other. She wanted to know if she should just suck it up and stick it out. You suggested counselling to potentially transition a split, which I thought was fantastic. I’d never heard of it before. So can you elaborate on how beneficial that type of counselling can be?
Dr Morrissey: I think this is a new area of counselling that people don’t realise is out there for you. I think it was laughed about with the whole Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin “conscious un coupling”, but that’s really what it means. You’re in a situation where you can just tell the relationship has come to it’s use by date. You’re not happy in this sort of empty companionate relationship and one or both of you want something more.
Couples therapists will often talk about a pendulum when they’re dealing with clients. They’ll say, this is a very passionate couple, their pendulum swings from hot lustful passion on the one hand and then they’ll swing right the way over to anger and betrayal and hate. And that’s really how you can get couples who’ve experienced cheating, for example, to come back to getting over it and being together, because there’s passion. You’ve got energy and emotional investment to work with.
The apathetic couples, where they’ve done more than lost their mojo, they’ve lost all kind of positive regard for each other outside of that sort of friend zone. They’re in the middle and their pendulum barely swings. They’re in the sexless marriage; their needs aren’t being met. They’ve maybe tried counselling to stay together over and over. Or they’ve bargained to stay together until the kids were older. They question now why are we in this together?
Navigating a Conscious Uncoupling
There are a lot of couples that need help transitioning to separation. They need to come to feel validated that it’s an okay place to be; that the relationship has served its purpose. It’s given both a great amount of joy and freedom and all of the things relationships can bring.
But then, if you get to a point where it no longer serves that original purpose and you haven’t found new purpose together as parents, or business partners, or whatever, then you can have someone counsel you through how to be your better self when you’re splitting, as opposed to the worst version of yourself.
You can be coached through how you can have good regard for each other through the process and after the process without losing the memory and sight that you loved that person in the beginning and shared a lot with that person. That bond is part of your story.
Divorce coaches also do this, not just counsellors. We often think of divorce coaches as someone who’s sort of onside with your lawyer and is going to be aggressive and assertive and fight for you in your corner. But a divorce coach doesn’t necessarily do that. They’re not just a financial coach. They’re someone wanting to get you through an extremely tumultuous experience, with you being the best version of yourself. And if you have to have an ongoing relationship of any kind with your ex; if that can be better rather than worse, let’s opt for that.
Time to Say Goodbye
Belle: So let’s say that you’ve been to counselling or reached the decision for yourself that it’s time; the relationship is over. Is there a right way to end a relationship?
Dr Morrissey: It’s hard to answer specifically because everybody’s situation is different. Why are you ending it, really? If it’s not because of a dramatic deal breaker, a total betrayal of one of the rules and expectations, and it’s come to its absolute end, then hopefully it’s not going to come as a big surprise. If it comes as a big surprise that means you have not been communicating. You haven’t given them or the relationship a chance.
However, if they’ve done nothing wrong. If things could have turned around had they’d been given that chance, it’s a bit of a red flag. If the relationship’s been in that kind of unhappy lonely state for so long and they haven’t noticed, the not noticing is a big indicator that you’re in an unhappy and unhealthy relationship.
But people can live in routines for a long time really not paying attention to their partner or that it was that bad. I’ve actually heard people come into the counselling room and he will say, ‘I didn’t know it was this bad. I didn’t know she was on the brink of leaving’- just not paying attention.
But, is there a right way to end it? Well hopefully if it isn’t coming as a giant surprise, the right way is not with a post-it note or any of those sort of iconic bad moves. You shouldn’t leave and then send them a text you’ve left. It’s what is going to feel to you that you’ve done the right thing.
I’ve sat with couples and I know I felt this myself, where because of the kids, they’ve stayed
longer. They wanted to be able to say to the kids when the kids were older, I honestly
tried everything. You don’t owe that to your kids, that’s a parental decision. But you may want to feel like you owe that to yourself.
If you feel like you’ve given the relationship everything you can where you’re at now, being able to end it with the respect that this is somebody who’s been your partner–assuming they haven’t treated you terribly disrespectfully–and remembering that there was something in the beginning that brought you together, so ending it is on a sort of moral and emotional level. Again, that intuition, is it aligning with, ‘do you feel like you’re handling this well?‘
But then, we tend to be conflict avoiders. How are they going to take it? If you feel at all unsafe or worried, then you know you have to make sure that somebody in your life knows that you’re going to be finishing it. You want your support system around you because you never really know how you’re going to react too when the finality of it hits.
Break Up Benefits
Belle: We tend to focus on the ending side of break up. But of course with every ending there is the opportunity for a new beginning. And Dr Morrissey, I love this, you released a podcast a couple of years ago on The Divorced Sexologist about the five gifts that divorce gave you. They were: peace, financial freedom, time with girlfriends, being selfish, and finding yourself again.
Can you talk us through some of the positives of separation? Are there any others that you would add to the list today?
Dr Morrissey: Oh 100%. I really think we don’t have the same stigma about being a divorcee; that we have one or more marriages under our belt. Maybe it’s Bridget Jones, maybe it’s various things when you’re single and your life is surrounded by couples. And when you get divorced you’re splitting everything that you built. It feels like destruction. It feels like you have to tease everything apart. You’re even splitting apart your friends and the neighbourhoods where you used to hang out together. That negativity is still very pervasive.
Add to that, a lot of women when they divorce are worse off if they have children. They struggle to get the child support that they rightly deserve. They do the lion’s share of child rearing as a single parent and then they’re probably having to earn more and pay more because now you’ve got your own household and you’re not a shared utility situation.
There’s a lot of negative that people focus on, and they don’t focus on the new chapter and all the positives that come from being your own person as well as being single. I’ll joke with my girlfriends that I’m not sure I’ll ever share a house again. I love sleeping diagonally across the bed, not having to compromise what’s on television, or that I don’t have to cook dinner if I don’t feel hungry. I love that!
So there are lots of positives around that life stage, whether you’re in your 30s, 40s, 50s, or 60s. It’s a new opportunity to grow within yourself and find joy that’s different than it would have been in a relationship. And a lot of it comes around having a chance to just go through a bit of a positive selfish stage of what do I want for me? How do I want to spend this time for me?
I want to have my girlfriends over and have them spend the night and go on girlfriend trips and have a quiet house and listen to whatever music I want to on my terms; buy the dog I’ve always wanted or the cat that I’ve always wanted because they were allergic. Indulge those things that are just for you.
We don’t talk about those as being advantages as much as we focus on the loss that comes through divorce. It can feel like a loss and there are grief stages to go through, but then there’s huge excitement and newness and possibility that you can explore that’s all fabulous. Allow it to be fabulous and not stressful and anxious. I think we need to think more positively about the new you that can emerge out of a relationship.
No Regrets
Belle: So in your decades of experience, have you ever met people who regret their divorce?
Dr Morrissey: Absolutely. I’ve had people regret their divorce. I’ve had men and women regret their divorce. And the regret often comes from the not doing rather than the doing. When you do something bad you can try and fix it or get forgiveness or work it out. The regret comes from: ‘I didn’t try counselling; I just decided to split’. ‘I didn’t try to talk it through and try to reconnect’. ‘There was probably more I could have done’. ‘I thought it was going to be easier and that we’d automatically have a great post-relationship as friends and co-parents because we’d been such a great partnership in marriage’. ‘I didn’t know that the pain was going to create this much dissonance and conflict, and so in hindsight I wish I’d tried harder for a bit longer in the marriage’.
People have regrets and that’s not to say that they’re valid regrets. If things haven’t turned out in the new chapter the way they anticipated, then the grass is greener in hindsight. So if they regret the divorce it doesn’t mean necessarily they made the wrong decision or the wrong choice.
It’s not a good idea to live your life with ‘what ifs’. You’ll drive yourself crazy and will never have confidence in your decisions and connection with your own growth. Relationships are difficult for everybody. Your only guarantee is that there will be difficulties.
Belle: We often hear stories of people who lose their friends because of divorce or separation. So how can family and friends best support someone going through a divorce?
Dr Morrissey: If someone tells you they’re splitting up, I think one of the worst things you can do is say, ‘good, I always hated him’. There’s a possibility they could end up back together. But also, you want to be supportive of where they’re at and not question the choices that they’ve made leading up to that.
The friend is there to say, ‘what can I do to support you?’ Just be an emotional support, be a sounding board. Try to be as judgement-free as possible. Don’t jump to solutions too because everybody’s situation is different and just because you’ve gone through a divorce and it was painful and involved the courts doesn’t mean that your friend’s ex is going to do that. So you have to try to not see things through your own lens and just be there for them.
It’s a lot of asking questions: What do you need? Do you want me to bring you lunch? Would you like to go out for the night? How about you come spend the night? Do you want to go to the movies? It’s a difficult terrain because nobody knows what each day brings when you’re in a split. It is a roller coaster.
Should Friends Get Involved?
Belle: And on that score, should we ever get involved if we think someone is in a bad relationship? Should we speak up?
Dr Morrissey: That is a really hard one because there can be a bit of danger involved for a friend. As much as we might want to say that a friend can be a lifeline, there are instances of ex’s taking vengeance out on the friends if they think that there’s been meddling. So there’s only so far a friend should go into the intricacies of a relationship.
What you can do when you’re with your friend, and their abusive partner is nowhere around, is you can drop hints: ‘you know I noticed he said something that I don’t like. I just want you to know as your friend I think you should be treated better; as your friend I don’t think he should call you names.‘ You can take that kind of tact and just point things out because you’re voicing probably her inner voice, so she knows she’s not alone. If you love and care for them and wish better for them, there are ways to say I will help you.
You shouldn’t get involved in terms of trying to get someone to safety until they’ve met and spoken with someone who can do exit planning and safety planning and making sure that they do it in a really, really safe way. But mostly, if it’s a coercive controlling situation the more common scenario is to say, ‘I’ve always thought going to counselling or talking to somebody or calling one of those Lifeline type numbers has been really helpful, and you know, I never told anybody, but I did it‘. Even if you’re lying, you’re still telling them that it’s okay to call and reach out for help.
Leaving a Dangerous Relationship
Belle: You are the CEO of the Women’s Resilience Centre in Australia which not only offers support but capability building and employment readiness programmes for women who found the courage to leave some of the worst types of relationships, which is just fantastic that they have these supports available to them. But for the person who is in such a relationship, what is the first step for them?
Dr Morrissey: Again you can’t be formulaic around it. Everybody has to assess their own risk and that’s why there’s no judgement around women who’ve chosen to stay far too long in situations that held big personal risk–risk to safety, risk to their emotional resilience and balance. So a woman can either call and make immediate plans to leave and leave into safety, either with the
police or through the shelter systems and the domestic violence services. Or they can start planning…there’s exit planning and safety planning. Both are important.
Safety planning is making sure that you are safe where you are and safe in the steps forward that you want to take. And exit planning is how are you going to get out? Is this something that you want to leave immediately or in the dead of night because if you give him any forewarning things will get radically worse fast? Or is it that you have some time? It’s awful, but bearable. It’s not a risk to your physical safety.
You also want to take a look at what job could you have if you don’t have a job right now? Can you set up a bank account at a different bank than the one you bank at right now or bank at together? What steps can you take to make sure you’ve got the paperwork set-up that you need? Put yourself into planning mode because that also gives you hope and it gives you a goal to work towards, you can see where the light is at the end of the tunnel.
You have to keep yourself very safe in the meantime because when a woman is planning to leave it’s her most dangerous time. But if she’s in a coercive controlling relationship it’s a way of also clawing back a little of the power and control. It’s just you’re doing it secretly. So many women are in this kind of situation and it might take them a matter of days or it might take them a matter of years before they actually leave.
If they can call a service and get advice on how to do it safely and practically so that they have everything that they need set-up for when they’re on their own, then they’ll probably end up with better outcomes. And that’s what services like the Women’s Resilience Centre are set-up to do. They have mentors. These are women who either have some skill to give and advice to give on employment and jobs, or they are down the road of having lived through domestic violence and abuse. They’re just years forward and now wanting to help a woman who’s just starting that leaving journey and can offer shared wisdom that they’ve gained along trekking that road.
Still Undecided?
Belle: So if someone is still undecided whether to stay or go, what are your parting words for that person?
That period of time–whether it’s a short time or a long time–where you are really thinking, ‘Do I stay or do I go? What happens if I stay? What happens if I go? How do I know I’m making the right choice? What is entailed? Who do I affect? Whichever choice I make who else is affected?’ And so on. There are just a couple of final words…
The first is you deserve to be happy. You deserve to have peace in your house. Your house is your sanctuary. You deserve to feel safe in your life and you deserve to feel like you’re a free human. So if you don’t feel like you’re experiencing those things, know that you have the right to them. You have the right to them and you deserve them. And if you think you can achieve those by working on your relationship and having clearer communication with your partner about how far away from that you are, that’s often a good place to start.
If you know in your heart of hearts and that inner voice is telling you you’ve really tried it all, there’s no hope for this, and you’ve got to get out. Visualise what your next chapter could be and don’t let it be led by fear because life will work out for you. Visualise what it can actually hold for you and try to be excited by that because there will be sadness, and like we’ve said, turbulence in that transition. But because you deserve freedom and love and joy in your life and personal happiness, just listen to yourself about which pathway, which choice is going to lead to that, sooner rather than later, because life is finite and we get this one life.
Regardless of your beliefs, this is it. This is your one life. That was honestly the phrase that finally tipped me over the edge. I was like, we get one life and I have spent far too much of it not in that place of personal happiness and I made a move. So maybe this is your invitation to do the same.
Belle: I love that. That’s such good advice. Dr Morrissey, thank you for sharing your knowledge, your wisdom, your compassion, and of course, your lived experience.
